Leadership Book Club: What Got You Here Won’t Get You There by Marshall Goldsmith

Kristen and Mike break down Marshall Goldsmith's influential book "What Got You Here Won't Get You There." While they praise the practical advice and behavioral frameworks in the book, they also challenge some of its core assumptions and discuss how leadership development has evolved since its 2007 publication. Through their analysis, they reveal how seemingly small behavioral habits can make or break a leader's effectiveness - and why changing these habits requires more than just willpower. The episode offers both practical tips for behavior change and a thoughtful critique of traditional executive coaching approaches, making it valuable for anyone looking to grow as a leader.

Highlights:

• The 20 workplace habits that can derail successful leaders and why "winning too much" tends to be the most common and destructive behavior
• How successful leaders typically exhibit 6-8 of these habits, and why identifying your one or two biggest problem areas is crucial for development
• The surprising reason why stopping negative behaviors can be more effective than trying to develop new positive ones
• A detailed breakdown of Goldsmith's seven-step change process, including how to gather feedback, apologize effectively, and follow through consistently
• Why traditional approaches to leadership development might oversimplify complex psychological factors like imposter syndrome and internal motivation
• The concept of "feedforward" and how this future-focused alternative to traditional feedback can create more openness to change
• How the simple act of saying "thank you" can transform the way you receive feedback and criticism
• An analysis of whether the book's somewhat rigid approach and lack of nuance still serves modern leaders effectively

Links & Resources Mentioned:

• What Got You Here Won't Get You There by Marshall Goldsmith
• Extreme Ownership by Jocko Willink
• How to Win Friends & Influence People by Dale Carnegie
• Dare to Lead by Brené Brown
• It's Your Ship by Michael Abrashoff
• Good to Great by Jim Collins
• The First 90 Days by Michael D. Watkins

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Transcript

Kristen: Welcome to Love and Leadership, the podcast that helps you lead with both your head and your heart, plus a bit of humor. I'm Kristen Brun Sharkey, a leadership coach and facilitator.

Mike: And I'm Mike Sharkey, a senior living and hospitality executive. We're a couple of leadership nerds who also happen to be a couple.

Kristen: Join us each week as we share our unfiltered opinions, break down influential books, and interview inspiring guests.

Mike: Whether you're a seasoned executive or a rising star, we're here to help you level up your leadership game and amplify your impact.

Kristen: Hello, and welcome back to Love and Leadership. I'm Kristen,

Mike: I'm Mike

Kristen: And we have a Leadership Book Club LBC episode. today we are talking about the book, What Got You Here Won't Get You There: How Successful People Become Even More Successful by Marshall Goldsmith, and his co- author, Mark Reiter, who I think is a literary agent and has co authored a bunch of books.

Mike: Yeah. Cool. This is one of the first books you gave me. I remember back in 2022, 2022. Yeah. Yes.

Kristen: Yeah, I use this book a lot in coaching, particularly certain elements of it, like mainly the 20 habits, which we will get into, but I think there's a lot of good stuff in it. We also definitely have our like,things about it that didn't resonate as much, which we'll get into.

But, Mike, I know you, you've listened to this exclusively on audiobook

Mike: That's true. Most books I listen to in audio,

so,important to know, and, we'll dig into the difference. And I think Kristen and I have had, maybe a different experience reading this book for sure at least, somewhat.

Kristen: Yeah, and we'll get into that, especially towards the end when we talk about what didn't resonate for us. But yeah, to give some background on this book before we really dive into it. This book was published in 2007. Marshall Goldsmith, the author, is, um, arguably the most famous executive coach out there.

He is very well known. He's in the Thinkers50 Hall of Fame, which like recognizes the most influential thinkers and management. He has a gazillion, bazillion awards of all kinds of things. He's known for pioneering a lot of the 360 feedback techniques that executive coaches use today. And he's written a few books.

He's coauthored a bunch of other ones, but this is definitely the book he is known for. And I think it's also an exceptionally well titled book. Because it's something that really resonates with people. Just the title alone, What Got You Here Won't Get You There, I think it really speaks to people who have been promoted based on their technical skills, and knowledge, and so forth, and then they reach a point in their career where the only thing holding them back is their people skills

I do think the audience that he's talking about for this is pretty senior leaders. So that is one thing to note. 

Mike: I do think that, I mean, I, I love so many of the concepts he has in here. I think it's, the overarching concept is you must introspect yourself and, assess your suitability, not just suitability, but like how you are going to succeed in whatever position you find yourself in.

And I don't think that, I agree that his focus is definitely more senior leaders, but I think a lot of this is applicable to anyone in any position. Oh, yeah. And in some ways more than some of the other books we've read, that focus on knowledge workers. These questions that you can ask yourself will help you succeed in whatever role because they force you to look at yourself and try and be objective or even ask other people and be like, Hey.

How am I coming off at work? It's not something anyone ever says to you really, so it's very solid.

Kristen: I agree. There's some very good techniques in here, and just principles in general. So yeah, so getting into the first couple chapters of the book, he gives some examples of successful leaders who have no idea how their behavior is coming across to others, and talks about how over time it erodes their goodwill, it erodes trust, and it ultimately hurts them in their career. And he says that most of the time, these are just simple behavioral tics. So these are basically like bad habits that we just repeat all the time in the workplace. Which can be resolved by pointing them out, like showing the impact that they cause on others, and then using like behavioral tweaks, and this is all, like, basically behavioral coaching at its core, which is based on behavioral psychology. 

So, a lot of this is around, similar to when we talk about, like, habit formation, which we have in a couple of other books. Putting tweaks into place and having a process where you're continuously getting feedback and improving and then working on the next thing. He wants everybody to consider the possibility, and again, this is written for people who are, I think, have been very successful in their career and are not necessarily sure what could be holding them back, but he wants people to consider that like, you might not be as good as you think you are.

We all have corners in our behavioral makeup that are messy. Those messy corners can be pinpointed and tidied up, and he can leave your world slightly better than he found it. And he says this book is aimed at anybody who wants to get better. And I think if you, take the core principles of it, I think that's absolutely true, even though a lot of his certain parts of it and a lot of like his examples are like very senior leaders.

Okay. So, chapter three, um, is, he calls the success delusion or why we resist change and the whole theory here is that because leaders get positive reinforcement from past successes, they tend to do things like overestimate their contributions, take credit, full or partial, for successes that belong to others, have an elevated opinion of their professional skills. And he says, like, this isn't necessarily a bad thing, a lot of this stuff is, like, what actually ultimately helps you succeed. Having a strong, opinion in your ability to succeed is necessary in order to keep persisting in the face of challenges, right?

But he says it's a serious liability when change is needed. And he says there's these four Key beliefs that are required in order to be successful, but they can also make it difficult to change. This is where it's like the beliefs that carried us here might be holding us back in our quest to go there.

So those four beliefs are, I have succeeded, which is a often like a mantra that you use to remind yourself of past successes and carry through.



Mike: And then number two is I can succeed. And he talks about successful people have a high internal locus of control, which basically means they don't feel like they're victims of fate and they see success as largely a function of people's motivation and ability, not luck, random chance or external factors.

Kristen: I know. I have some 

Mike: I have so many issues. I'm sorry. Like

Kristen: I have a lot of issues with this chapter too.

Mike: I have so many issues with that. I have so many issues with that. Yes. A hundred percent. First of all, the word locus bothers me. I, as someone who likes to use big words, I don't know. I find that to be, I

Kristen: Really? I love that phrase. I love locus of control.

, I don't know this, I have to look at his upbringing, but I'm sure he was,came from a family that was able to send him to colleges and, I think he actually talks about growing up in like middle of nowhere Kentucky, like pretty, I don't know what his income was, but

Mike: I just to think that, I don't know about luck.

Kristen: I don't. But he's also I think he's in his like Wait, I feel like he said when he wrote this book, he was in his late fifties. So he must be in like his

Mike: He's 75 right

Kristen: 75. Okay. Yeah. I think he's been very successful for a very long time.

Mike: Yeah. To think that, and I'm not going to go into privilege and all that, but yes, your success is absolutely predicated on your effort and your,some of this is right out of Extreme Ownership, How Us Navy SEALs Lead and Win.

And it's the dichotomy of leadership. It's right. The balance of I have succeeded, but I can do more. I am good, but I can be better, and walking that fine line of stuff. But to think that like somehow fate doesn't play a part in your ability to access resources, is frankly insane to me.

Kristen: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, this is probably the chapter I have the most challenges with the content of, just because it's written, it's not like, many successful people feel this, it's like, this is how successful people feel, and I don't think it accounts for a lot of anywhere near everybody.

Maybe it does for a lot of the people he's working with or was working with,

Mike: Who are probably 80. He's, I'm sorry. Like, I

Kristen: I mean, this was written now, like, 

17 years ago. So it's been a while. A lot has changed since then. A

Mike: A lot has changed, if less than say 70 percent of the executives he coached were not white men.

I will eat my shorts.

Kristen: Oh, absolutely.

Mike: So okay. I'm sure that's true for you know

for white men who probably come from a somewhat at least somewhat privileged upbringing. You know the CEO that started at the bottom truly at the bottom in the mailroom is a very rare. Those people went to Wharton they got MBAs and all of that comes with societal privilege and not everybody i'm not I don't mean to paint a completely broad brush, but yeah, it's not

Kristen: I mean I think for most, yeah, absolutely.And I feel like that's especially true if you look at the leaders of especially like, I mean, not that it's gotten much better in 17 years, but most of the leaders he's worked with up until this point in his career, like the majority are going to be coming from privilege.

Mike: They are. 

Kristen: Assuming that it's, there's no luck involved, it's all you is just very short sighted.

Mike: on. It's very blinders on sorry, a lot of people, they were born on third base and they think they hit a triple. You know, and, I'm not trying to solve our social inequities issue. I'm, that's very big problem, but to not recognize it or to not name it, and maybe it would be a different book if he wrote it in 2024, I don't know.

I don't know the answers, but I do know there are more problems than internal locus of control, you know?

Kristen: Mm-Hmm.

Mike: Yeah. Yeah,

Kristen: Yeah.

No, I agree. I that also, yes,

Mike: But we'll get into that more in the What Didn't Resonate section that we do at the end.

Kristen: We'll do our high level take, but I do think this chapter is worth breaking down a little bit because there were a lot of it, a lot of things that I was like, uh. Um, his third point I do agree with, he says, I will.

I will succeed is the belief, which is another way of saying I have the motivation to succeed. And his point with this is just that people, successful people tend to overcommit themselves. Because once they establish, I'm going to do this, it's like I'm going to do whatever it takes to do this.

And, then they end up extremely busy and overcommitted, which can make it harder to make change because it's always easier. It's making change requires a lot of conscious effort. It requires time over a period of time. So I have no problems with that one.And then his fourth one is, I choose to succeed and he says, successful people have a high need for self determination.

When we do what we choose to do, we're committed when we do what we have to do, we're compliant. And the more we believe our behavior is a result of our own choices and commitments, the less likely we are to want to change our behavior.

Mike: mean, these are solid,

Kristen: Yeah, that's the app.

Mike: They're like, an internal drive to succeed is necessary no matter where you come from.

Even if, yeah.

Kristen: And he says like almost everybody is successful because they're doing a lot of things right. Which often leads to some superstition where you're like, oh, like I got this far because I was doing these things.

And almost everybody is successful in spite of some behavior that defies common sense.

Mike: Yeah, I wrote down, I think some of this, doing a lot of things right, like that's, at least as you're coming up and you're more responsible for just yourself, you can control and micromanage yourself into success. And then I think a lot of this book can be seen through the lens of like, how do you go from, being a high performer to being a leader and then to being a leader of leaders.

You know, those are all different levels that require different skills, different,different techniques. And I think a lot of people get stopped by, the Peter Principle, right? The Peter Principle is where you get promoted just beyond your ability to your abilities like, I don't in the military.

It's okay, you might do well. And okay, you're promoted to be a squad leader. You're good at that. You're promoted to be like the platoon. I'm sure these are not the right order. So I apologize. You're promoted to be

Kristen: a, I mean, I would not know

Mike: sure, but we might have one listener. Uh, you know, uh, then you get promoted to be a platoon chief.

You're great at that. And you get promoted to be, I don't know what, like you're a battalion commander and you're great at that. And then you're promoted to be like, I don't know what's next. General of the army and that's way beyond you. And and, but you're not going to get demoted.

Kristen: You're going to get left there and you're going to struggle because, that was actually beyond your ability to, amalgamate those skills. But you can, if you're introspective about it, you can probably apply a lot of these principles and do better. Yeah, for sure., And he says that people will do something which includes changing your behavior only if it can be demonstrated that doing sois in your own best interest as defined by your own values. Which I think isn't, I think it actually is true, right? I think being defined by your own values is important, right? Because your values might include other people, like helping people or other people being very important to you. So it doesn't necessarily mean, you're only willing to change things like just for yourself, but according to your values, I think makes sense.

I mean, I think about it in terms of, you know, we're in our second year of marriage. We definitely still go through, figuring out things like household chores and stuff, it's still like an ongoing process.

, But I think about like, okay, if I, I have a lot of genuine desire to change habits and behavior for what is best for you and our marriage, but that's also because like I, not only do I love you, but I deeply value our marriage and our relationship.

So I'm willing to do things that maybe if it was just me living by myself, I wouldn't necessarily do. So I think thinking about it in that way, I'm like, okay, I think that actually makes sense.And if you press successful people to identify the motives behind their self interest, he says, it usually boils down to money, power, status, and popularity, but which one varies by person.

At the end of the book, he also talks about, people reflecting back on their lives or, what has,made them stay at a company and it's actually like money is not in there. It's much more around like the people, like finding meaning and fulfillment.

So I feel like that's almost contradictory to this to some extent.

Mike: I have, I also want to take a moment and try and destigmatize this because when you say this, their self interest boils down to money, power, status, and popularity. Okay. I will posit that, this is actually your survival instinct and it's a very like primitive thing.

It's your desire is not just for power and money. Like, yes, that may be on top of it, but it's a desire for survival. And even now, your ability to access resources, to keep yourself safe, to keep your family safe, a lot of that depends on money and status and location to power. Those are very, primitive drives, I think.

I don't

Yeah, I guess that makes sense. And I think unless you've done the internal work. Which is very hard. And your values might be different. You might be very faith driven and you believe God, universe, the whatever is going to look out for you. And, that's awesome too.

But ultimately we're biological beings that are programmed for survival and going after those things increase your chance of survival. And so I think there's this like trend in, in work and business in America. I don't know where like, you have to pretend like you're not working for money and the only people that are not working for money are people that have a lot of it.

And don't have to and those people are very rare the rest of us are we're working for money And yes, we want all we want connection. We want community we want you know a leader who inspires us and teammates who we get along. We want all of those things and we're not necessarily going to stay in a very toxic place if we don't have those things, but if you stop paying everyone nobody's going to work.

Let me clear that up right now Yeah

for sure.And then his last thing summing this up is if you know what matters to you, it's easier to commit to change. If you don't, you won't know when it's being threatened. Um, so that gets into the 20 habits that hold you back from the top. This is actually the part of the book I use the most as a coaching tool. it's super solid.

Kristen: It's very helpful. And when he's introducing it, I think one thing he points out that's really interesting and true is that, company performance systems are really based around positive actions.

Like if you get credit for doing something or doing more of something, you don't get credit for stopping doing something that was unproductive. That's just not really built into

Mike: That's too bad. in, In Good to Great, which we should do, like he talks about that as one of the main like predictors of a company.

So they're able to go through what they're doing and pick the things that they should stop doing. And that was like, I know I quoted a Steve Jobs example wherever there had 50 things on the board. And he went and he crossed them all out basically and wrote four things. Mobile desktop on one side and business and personal on the other.

And, and that's the difference between leader, not leader. That's the, that's what a leader is supposed to do. He's not supposed to necessarily be the smartest in the room, but he's supposed to be able to cut through the noise. And if you're listening to this after the Rebecca Yang interview, um, she talks about that a lot.

And that's, I think that's justthe heart of the, of the matter. Yeah, for sure. You should figure out what you need to stop doing.

Kristen: Yeah. If you have not listened to that yet it will air the, week after this episode. 

What's interesting about this is that if we end up converting the stopping of behavior into a positive action, which is like this other step that actually just makes it harder to implement. So he gives us example of trying to be nicer versus stopping being a jerk and which are like the same thing, but he's like with a former, you have to identify what are all the negative behaviors, and then actually convert them into positive behaviors that you would do instead.

Versus with the latter, you can simply just, you can stop responding to a lot of things, and like, keep your mouth shut. Like, you know, like, it's a simpler step, which makes it a lot easier to implement. I think there's a lot to be said there.

Yeah. I'm trying to learn to keep my mouth shut. So I won't comment on that.I honestly learning not to speak up is, and he's going to go through a few more of those, learning to not always need to speak up, I think is a, I'm having trouble with that. I'm sorry. It's an important skill.

Mike: It is a skill for sure. Those of us that are loquaciously, gifted.

Kristen: Or, but, or even those who like, even if you are naturally not that way, but you've had to develop the skill of speaking up to get the visibility that you've needed to get promoted into a senior leadership role. And then it changes, right? That's why this is what got you here, won't get you there.

So these 20 habits that we're going to get into. So he says, these are not flaws of skill, intelligence, personality. Like these are all interpersonal behavior based and correcting them is important because it helps us enlist people as our allies. And he says of the 20, most of his clients are doing like six to eight of them.

And there's like one or two that are holding them back the most, which I think tracks.

Mike: That tracks for me. Some, sometimes it's one glaring thing that's making some somewhat unpromotable, and it gets in the way of really winning it, Shakespeare would call this your tragic flaw, right?

And it's, it can lead to your downfall. Your blind spot is like where you're going to get hit. Yeah. Yeah.

Kristen: is like where you're going to get hit. I don't know. This is I think I'm more, he did use the word theoretically. I'm like, I think a lot of people honestly get promoted into positions because of their relationships with the people making the decisions. It's a reality. But theoretically people at that level are like, not

Mike: I'm sorry. There's no luck involved in it. There's no, you know Let's go back to his original founding principles. There's no luck. It's just your internal locus of control. Right, right.

Kristen: Yeah. So yeah, I don't agree with that entirely, but he says basically what the higher up you become,yourissues with your interpersonal skills become more pronounced and people skills are like usually going to make the biggest difference in how high you you go.

I think this is more theoretical.

Mike: I, so I really, I like it, but you know there are a lot of people in positions of power that don't have great people skills.

Kristen: Yeah. Well, but that's theoretically what he's saying is once you're at a certain level, behavioral changes are like often the only significant changes you can make because you like,

Mike: I totally agree with

Kristen: which I

I agree with that. But there's, And if something is holding you back, the thing that's holding you back is usually going to be more on the interpersonal.

Mike: I think that's definitely true. But, to think that's what gets you, I don't know. We know that's not true.

Kristen: I mean, again, I think a theme in this book is there's a lot of very strong statements that don't really allow for nuance. So that's, yeah. I think that was one of them. But I do gen I, I agree with that, that the more senior you are, the more this is what's going to be what's holding you back.before we go through these, he does say like he doesn't really recommend people self diagnose because in his experience, people tend to overestimate their strengths and overrate their weaknesses.

So they're not necessarily like they have blind spots toa lot of weaknesses and then the things that they see as weaknesses They think are much worse than they actually are like they you'll rate them as like terrible when it's actually mediocre.

But I think it is helpful to go through these and recognize oh, yeah, I know I do this one

So.So getting into these we'll try to not spend too much time on these because otherwise this is going to be a very long episode.

But, I do want to talk through all of them because I use them as

Mike: good. They're really good.

Kristen: And a lot of them really are centered around this number one, which is winning too much. And he says, this is the most common behavioral problem that he sees in successful people because it tends to be underlying, almost every habit.

And there's this fine line between being competitive and over competitive and between, winning when it counts and also winning when no one is counting. And successful people often have a hard time with crossing that line. And he says this is a really strong genetic urge for people. And we, it can be very hard to resist it, even though, even when it is like objectively much better for you to just let things go.

Mike: Yeah, I, it's true. People like a winner, but they don't like somebody, they want to win too, you know? Like

Kristen: Yeah. And he gives this example of a test for this of asking, like, if you and your partner are like, debating what restaurant to go to, and your partner really insists on this one restaurant, and you're like, Ugh, but like, the reviews are terrible, they say like, the service is bad, et cetera, and then you give in, and you go to that restaurant. So, if like, if you go there, and it turns out that everything's terrible, the service is terrible, the food is terrible, do you make a comment to your partner about the fact that you went to that restaurant?

Mike: Yes! I wrinkle my nose.

Kristen: Yeah. I think he said like 75 percent of his clients will say, make the comment, even though like from a cost benefit perspective, it is way better for them to not do that.

Mike: do that.

Kristen: he

Mike: it go, let it go on. No, no, we're,

Kristen: When I love it, he talked about, he was doing training for, for army generals and they asked this question and it was like 75 percent raise their hands, yes, I would still make the comment, but then they did something that involved their wives. And for like the 25 percent that said, no, I wouldn't make that comment.

I would let it go. Their wives were like, oh, you would absolutely make that comment. Right. Um, so I think that's just interesting. I strongly relate to that. 

So yeah, I totally agree with this and I think it does make sense that this is beneath a lot of these other habits. So that's why it's the first one listed. The next one is adding too much value, which once you like start thinking about this, you see it everywhere.

But the higher you go up in an organization, the more you need to make other people winners and not make it about yourself. And we've talked about this a lot. We've talked about how the job of a leader is to create more leaders. And, we've also talked about imposter syndrome and how that can really drive you to speak up.

yeah. Which is not what he's arguing. He's arguing where it comes from this this successful people trait of needing to win. But I definitely agree with the actual, this actual habit, right? So this is something like if you find yourself, if somebody comes to you with something and you're like, oh, great idea.

And then, you start to go, but or however, he's suggesting basically just cut it off at the great idea and ask yourself. And he says that one of his clients just added a habit of before responding to something, taking a breath and he realized by doing that, that at least half of the things that he was saying were not worth saying.

Mike: Yeah, I think that's genius. Honestly, I think that's genius and it's why like you write a book and then it goes to an editor and if they're a good editor, they probably cut out like a third of it or something and be like you don't need this.We like the extended cut of the Lord of the Rings But there's a reason that it's only three hours and not four, you know you. I don't agree though with that part, at least for me, adding too much value I find comes from insecurity.

Kristen: Yeah, I think it often does. Absolutely. And I think that's something again, we're kind of like foreshadowing our what didn't resonate. I think in general,

We're writing 

Mike: it out in 

Kristen: Insecurity and imposter syndrome is not something he talks about at all in here. And I think I don't

Mike: Cause he doesn't have it.

Kristen: Clearly not. I don't agree with his drives necessarily, like with what he says is driving a lot of this stuff.

But I think the actual like the actual surface of it is true for most of us,

Mike: but

Kristen: but yes, I agree, but yeah, but I think this whole idea of take a breath and ask yourself, and this is a theme throughout these is what I'm about to say worth saying, like,what is the purpose of me saying this is so valuable on so many levels. Third is passing judgment. And this is especially passing judgment when people are trying to be helpful. So he gives this challenge of like, for one week, treat every idea that comes your way from somebody else with total neutrality. So don't express an opinion or judge the comment, like, just say thank you. Or like, thanks, I hadn't considered that. Or thanks, you've given me something to think about.

Mike: I think, I don't know, as I'm reading that, It's, that sounds very snarky almost, right? Thanks. You've given me a lot to think

Kristen: Well, if you say it that way.

Mike: Thanks for the advice, bro. A little bit like that.

Kristen: I mean, I don't know. I think it comes, I think your tone makes a big difference when you're saying that.

Mike: Thanks. I hadn't considered that.

Kristen: Well, I think the whole idea with this is that you're checking if your reaction when somebody says something to you is to start like judging it.

Mike: I think I actually, I love that challenge. It's just okay, that's a good idea. Interesting. Let me think about that.

Kristen: Yeah. Let me think about that. It

Mike: I'm kidding.. I think it's a very good, it's a very good topic. 

Kristen: Number, four is making destructive comments, which these are like the cutting sarcastic remarks that happen with or without intention, but like really, these often come across as a joke, but they're actually like, they serve no purpose other than to put people down.

They make the person saying them feel superior. Often this is coming from insecurity. I think it's almost always coming from insecurity, but people make these without noticing them or remembering them. So it's really hard to actually identify if this is a problem for you. He says of his clients, it's an issue for like 15 percent of them, and this includes, which I think is important to note, this includes making comments about people when they are not in the room, which I think is actually way more common, so talking about somebody in a way that is not respectful to somebody else?

Mike: Well, we got that from Brene. That's, that, that violates the, the braving. 

Kristen: Wellshe was talking a little, I think that was more about not sharing information about somebody that's not yours to share that you shouldn't be sharing with other people. But this is more like making comments about them. So

Mike: But it you know, it's

Kristen: it's a similar

Mike: I had a director who at one point said, you know If they're not in the room, you shouldn't be talking about them. And I thought that mostly was unless you're having like an HR

Kristen: yeah, if you're being like

Mike: sure, but like

Kristen: calibration or

Mike: Yeah, it's a good principle. You know, and if you're

Kristen: Especially talking to people who are their peers.

Mike: Are you having a, an official discussion or are you just talking out of school? And if it's the latter, even if it's between, people of a similar rank, it's not a good look.

Kristen: Yeah. I mean it goes back to like, is this constructive or not? Is this something helpful for you to say?

Like I actually had a client this week told me that he has a process for, he's like actually very good at self regulation, but he has a process where he, every day on the way home from work, he calls his wife and he vents about whatever he needs to vent about at work. And that's like basically his designated session to just let things out.

And that way it doesn't need to come out with people he works with. And when he gets home, he can actually be present with his family. But just having an outlet for that and like making that a designated outlet, I was like, that's really smart. Yeah.

Mike: That's contain it to 15 minutes or you have 10 minutes or whatever, 10 minutes to complain or be negative and then,go back to not being negative. Yeah. So

Kristen: It's like, what is the purpose of you making this comment to somebody else, right? Are you just trying to vent? Because there's probably a better place for you to do that.

hmm.I love number five, of course, which is starting with no but or however. I talk about this a lot, with, improv and the concept of yes, and but what he says is like when you start the message with that your message to the other person is you're wrong.

That's how they're gonna hear it.

Mike: And he he gives, like, a challenge, like, just take note of, over a day or two, how often you say those words, how often you start a sentence or, continue a sentence with no but or however, and it's, astounding how often it is.Telling the world how smart we are is number six.

Kristen: And he indicates like the main example of this is, and now I'm like actually aware of this. And I realized I've done it to you a couple of times today. And I'm like, Oh, wow. Uh, Saying like, I already knew that when somebody gives you a suggestion or they try to give you information.

And in a way that's like ultimately trying to be helpful. And you're like, I already knew that. that is basically announcing how smart you are in a way, and likepeople love people who are smart, but they don't love people who announce how smart they.

Mike: Are. No comment. I think that too, like that's adding value. It's it's an insecurity trait, and I've, I'm super guilty of that one. Oh

Kristen: I mean it's, I've, now I feel like I actually have more awareness of that. I hadn't really, you know, I paid attention to that particular phrase so much, so, but this goes back to is this worth you saying? Can you just let it go?

Mike: it go? That's so hard.

Kristen: It's so

Mike: so hard. Letting things go, not speaking when you have things on your mind. That's, that's high level stuff to be able to do that.

Kristen: Yeah. Yeah. Number seven is speaking when angry, which is, I think, definitely not an issue for everybody, but it is for the people it is an issue for. It can be a very big issue.

Mike: Well, I, he says here, once you get a reputation for emotional volatility, it's hard to change it. I think it's a little different nowadays, but if you go back to the eighties, I think the idea of a screaming boss was very

Kristen: Yeah, ~Well,~ that's what Brene Brown was talking about is like chandeliering is like when you have a manager who are like somebody who is high up enough that there's not

Mike: There's no consequences. In How I Met Your Mother they call it the chain of screaming, you know, the CEO screams at the COO, the COO screams advice and down the chain and people screaming until, you know, you, you're not allowed to do that. And now I, I don't know if it's less, it's probably at least like tacitly less, or we're trying to have more harmonious workplaces because we have discrimination claims and, workplace harassment claims and hostile workplaces, which are not as easy to prove and are not legally,defined in the way that people think they are, Oh, my boss is mean to me.

Well, that's not necessarily a hostile workplace, you know?but yeah.

Kristen: Yeah. You have to fit it within the actual

Mike: That, that part, even though like it seems very obvious, don't speak when speaking with anger, As a leader, your emotions are looked at through a magnifying glass and you better be cognizant of how you're being perceived and yeah, for sure.

Kristen: And I think what's important to note is he's not saying don't feel anger, because that's, I mean, he doesn't really talk about the emotions around it, but going back into everything we've been talking about on this podcast, if you try to just not feel emotions, that's not productive, right?

They're just going to come up in other ways, but like finding specific outlets for them. And then what I love that he says is okay, even if you're feeling, if you're feeling anger, if you keep your mouth shut, nobody's going to know. 

Mike: Nobody knows. Yeah.

Kristen: I mean, I think there's some degree of like, with body language and you have to like, do some control around your body language and tone and stuff.

It's not like just what you say, but if you can control with that, and that really is emotional regulation, going back to emotional intelligence, then it's, you don't need other people to know about that. Right. And then you can have an outlet for it outside of your office or when you're with other people.

Mike: Jocko talks about that a lot, actually, don't make decisions when you're emotional and you have to be aware of when you're emotional. Emotions are fine, but if, making decisions when you're emotionally activated,

Kristen: Yeah. Or like knowing when we've talked about with the episode on election mental health, like knowing when you need to call a timeout for yourself.

Mike: Brene talks about that a lot. She looks for the physiological reactions of her being like, as she calls it, hooked, and.

Kristen: And it's okay to just be like, you know what, I'm having, yeah, I just, I need a minute. Or like, I need to resume this conversation tomorrow.

Mike: tomorrow. Yeah. Rebecca talked about that. 

And Beezus is here. As 

Kristen: long as she doesn't walk on the keyboard, I don't

Mike: We had a little incident with the camera yesterday. 

Kristen: You can see her just knocking over a webcam on next week's episode. But

Mike: Okay, back to the book.

Back to the book.

Kristen: So number nine is withholding information. And he does note that like if you're intentionally withholding information, that is about gaining power. But what he's really talking about is like there are a lot of unintentional ways that we withhold information from people.

Like you're just too busy to send an email looping in on somebody on something or forgetting to include somebody in a meeting, which feels pretty terrible for the other person often, delegating a task without actually taking the time to set that person up for success.

And he says like, usually when we're withholding information, it's not out of malice, like we mean well, but we're just too busy or we forget or whatnot. But the thing to remember is that doing this unintentionally has the same results as doing it intentionally. Like people still feel having information withheld from them and it will definitely erode trust over time.

Mike: Yeah. Um, secretive why? It's one thing to keep information that's confidential or private, or HR stuff, but, I keep using the example, 

When I got to my current position, I was working with a chef,

And, she was getting, scolded for years, like basically Hey, you're over budget, you're over budget.

And she's like, what's my budget? And nobody ever like took the time to sit down and explain it to her or talk to her through it. And my maintenance director said the same thing. He had worked with, leaders who wouldn't tell him really what the budget was. Why? Why?

Kristen: it was just,

Mike: Well, because it's a centralization of power and you're guaranteeing your own importance in a way and you're setting yourself and everyone else up for not being successful.

So congratulations with that. She now knows her budget and she's on your budget all the time now. 

Kristen: If you can't tell by his tone of voice, Beezus

Mike: Come for 

Kristen: to love on him.

Mike: She's so pretty. She's so pretty. Look at her face. She's so perfect.

Oh my

Kristen: my gosh.

Mike: So number 10. Oh my god. Oh my god.

Are you able to continue podcasting in her presence?

No. I'm putty in her hands. Nope.

Kristen: And now you're bitten.

Mike: Why?

Kristen: Seems like a great time to put her down.



Kristen: So number 10 is failing to give proper recognition, which is definitely one, right? And this is another thing that people do unintentionally, because if it's not something that comes naturally to you, like I've actually worked with clients to set up processesAnd he mentions the process for this too, actually, but like where they have a calendar reminder, where they go through their team and think about who they want to thank for something they did that week.

And, having a calendar reminder for it like helps them do it. Like there's different ways to do this depending on what works for you but I think the thing he points out is that by not recognizing people you're depriving them of the emotional payoff that comes with success. He says like recognition is ultimately about closure

Mike: And

Kristen: it goes back to successful people become leaders when they learn to shift the focus from themselves to others. Yeah, I thought that was interesting. I haven't heard that before outside of this book. On like recognition.

Mike: of is right. You do. It makes sense.

Yeah.

Kristen: And then number 11, which is not only not giving recognition, but also claiming credit for something that you didn't actually deserve. And this is a very destructive habit. It generates, and he says that this is like when he does feedback interviews, this is the habit that by far generates the most negative emotion.

People respond very poorly to it. It creates this like bitterness that is really hard to get rid of once it's there. So that is something to be very sensitive to is don't claim credit when it's not yours to claim. And I've known so many people who've done this in my career. That I could still feel bitterness about when I search inside myself.

So, um, I, I get it. And then number 12 is making excuses. He says, there is no excuse for making excuses.

Mike: is one

Kristen: This is one I struggle with, but

Mike: I'm starting to like, as we go through this, dig out a little bit, why I, I mean, some of this stuff runs virtue signaling is not a term that I throw around a lot. And I like to hear stories of virtue and I don't pursue this.

It's very superior.

Kristen: Yeah, well, I, I don't like the comment if we stop excusing ourselves, we can get better at almost anything we choose.

Mike: Thanks, Dad.

Kristen: When I'm like, okay, like we can't get better at everything, right? Like that's

Mike: I, like, he's not wrong. Like, okay, you know, like, you should But I don't know.

The

I don't know that sets a realistic expectation for people to live up to. he's right though. Like there's

Kristen: I mean, he is

And he is right. He's right. But, I also don't know that like there's sometimes there's a difference between an excuse and an explanation fit

Mike: Well, and then we, we talk about neurodivergent people who you know

they're not actually making an excuse. They're trying to give you context and they're not necessarily shirking responsibility. They feel the need to explain things in, detail. This book paints everything with a very, narrow brush, if you will.

And, yeah.

Kristen: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, do I think this is a habit that can be destructive? Absolutely.

Mike: Yeah. We're not debating the factual accuracy of most of this stuff. But the, yeah.

Kristen: But yeah, some of the, the way it's written, yes. Um, number 13 is clinging to the past. And basically using the past to explain your behavior.

He's like, it might help you with accepting the past, but it's not helping you with changing the future. And he gives this example, like he talks about like people using their childhood to explain, why they do something today. And I, I, I kind of disagree with this in a lot of ways.

There's like another way he says that we're like, sometimes we use it to contrast where we are today and like highlight our successes. And it's almost like a covert bragging.

Mike: It's a lot of bragging and there's, this is so reductive, and for someone who should have a lot of psychological research, it's so, narrow minded? Yeah. and

Kristen: There's really lack of compassion.

There's a

Mike: a lack of

Kristen: In this chapter, or in this habit

Mike: For someone who I looked him up and he described himself as a philosophical Buddhist. And I also, 

the word compassion actually means to suffer with,

Kristen: with.

Mike: I don't feel a lot of suffering with people from that.

It's like very judgy.

Kristen: of suffering with it. And as a coach. 

Mike: a coach, 

Kristen: If you're not like spending the time with people that like help them understand, what are the limiting beliefs that are holding them back? I feel like that comes into that.

And yes. And like in coaching, you don't get into what are all the reasons you have this belief and how do you change it? That's the realm of therapy. But like just trying to keep people from acknowledging that is, I think actually irresponsible as a coach. If somebody is having a challenge with that, like I would ethically refer them to a therapist. 

Mike: Yep. Like

Kristen: So, um, yeah, I didn't love this one either. Number 14, playing favorites. So almost every leader in an organization says they would never play favorites, but to those who suck up to management, but it's still heavily dominates the workplace.

And I actually totally agree with this. I think this is true because this is really a bias, right? I think we, we have a bias towards people who are similar to us, like similarity bias is definitely a thing.

We also have biases towards people who are easier to work with, who are, and who like are very likable or make things very easy for us.

Mike: us.

Well, I, so I, I totally agree with this. I think you, you don't have to just be aware of playing favorites. You have to be aware of being perceived to play favorites because of course you're going to spend more time and energy with the people that are getting things done for you.

You have to rely on your high performers and you have to rely on the people that are in key positions, but you also have to be very aware of how that can be perceived by the rest of the team.

Kristen: Yeah. And you need to watch out for like, are you giving attention to people based on performance? Cause he actually talks about how like,it, we, we can almost get into a place where we start to, treat people like dogs. Whereit's very easy to put more affection on a dog because of their, there's just so much unconditional admiration, and they heap it upon us, right?

So are you, Are you playing favorites? Are you like giving more time and attention to people who are just giving you more admiration and sucking up to you basically, whether they're doing it intentionally or not,is it that, or is it actually performance based. Like there's a lot of gray areas, but I,

Mike: it's definitely a lot of

Kristen: It's super important to be aware of

Mike: is a lot of, yeah, for sure.

You have to

Kristen: Very aware of. 

So, number fifteen. Refusing to express regret or apologize, basically. Um,

Mike: not good at this. I'm You're like I'm not good at this You've 

Kristen: I'm terrible at apologizing. You've approved, I've gotten a lot

Mike: You've improved since we started our relationship. Yeah. And you always, you take the period of chewing, you'll come back like, 18 hours later and be like, I thought about it. You might be right

Kristen: I, yeah, this is definitely a, a growth area that I've made progress on,

Mike: Well, you're you run through the and Rebecca said we should add more love to our podcast so what you you run these three things through the supercomputer of your brain and need to like you need time to digest and look at the angles and introspect and evaluate on a intellectual level.

And then you can come back and say yeah, okay. And I used to want to press for it. Cause I'll apologize now. I always think I'm doing something wrong.

Kristen: Yeah. You apologize very quickly. And I'm like, you don't need to apologize for

Mike: I'm trying to get, but. I was trying to press you for that, and I was not getting satisfaction in our arguments, when you wouldn't do that. And then I started to realize that, if I left you alone, I just said my piece, and I left you alone for a while, you would see the truth of what was being discussed.

And that has been true.

Kristen: Yeah, for sure. I just need processing

Mike: You need processing time. You gotta run it through the Pleiades supercomputer that's in there.

Kristen: But yeah, he says people who can't apologize at work may as well be wearing a t shirt that says, I don't care about you. Apologizing is one of the most powerful gestures in the human arsenal. It's almost as powerful as I love you. It turns people into your allies, and this is so true, I have not had that many leaders who are very open about apologizing, it actually stands out in the workplace, and I think that also comes from insecurities, right?

Imposter syndrome. Like it's, it's really hard to admit fault for things

Mike: in the workplace.

Must maintain the image of

Kristen: yeah. And like,

Mike: no, like, are you,

Kristen: And it's so powerful to just be like, you know what? That was on me. I'm sorry.

Mike: Yeah, just that's, brings people to your side so fast, but like in a genuine way, not like in a manipulative way. Um, Number 16, not listening. What'd you say? Wow. That was,

Kristen: that was, that was a

Mike: That was bad. Sorry. I'll apologize for that one. Okay. That was on me.

Kristen: Um,

Mike: I was trying to add too much value. Oh, no comment.

Kristen: I love you.

Mike: I love you too.

Kristen: Um, so yes.

Mike: You can always tell when one partner is like, I love you too. Like when there's a lot of wilts, they're like.

Kristen: lot of girls.

Mike: Yeah, and we I mean we've talked a lot about listening, but he says like when you fail listening you're giving messages like I don't care about you. I don't understand you. You're wrong. You're stupid You're wasting my time and the absolute worst thing you can do is and this is so true and there are definitely people I've worked with who do this

Is actively displaying signs that you're not listening and demonstrating impatience. it's just like they're like clicking your fingernails on the, you know, like on the desk or tapping your foot or looking at your watch or just that is giving such a message of disrespect by doing that.

Kristen: And yet,I've seen this happen in so many meetings.

Mike: Let me ask though, like you, and I too, like, I focus better when my hands are doing something, it's very hard for me to just, I'm not a therapist. I can't sit and just maintain eye contact with somebody like, tell me what you're feeling. I'm always in some type of motion.

Kristen: I don't think that's the problem. I think it's more displaying like certain gestures that are indicating impatience.We'll do another episode or like a book soon on like body language or, yeah, I think we have that one coming up in the next couple of books actually,

Mike: His

Kristen: or next few books.

Yeah, for sure. Yes. But yeah, so I think the, we're getting a little bit on to tangents, but, it

Mike: What are the odds?

Kristen: Displaying actively displaying impatience is like even worse than not listening, right? Number 17, failing to express gratitude. And I love, this is, He has this in many places in the book, if you're not sure what to say, your default response to any suggestion should be thank you.

And recognizing that somebody's putting themselves out there by, by offering something. And since gratitude is a skill we can never display too often, it is not a limited resource and it isn't costly, yet most of us are stingy with it. Which is very insightful.

Mike: Some point we should do the book, How to Win Friends and Influence People.

Kristen: Oh yeah, I feel like we have to

Mike: have to do that. Which is, I don't know, it's so good, and

a lot of it is you know gratitude they talk about Abe Lincoln was the same, He wouldn't criticize his generals who were losing a war for him that they should have won easily.

Kristen: And he, he didn't castigate them in the press and he didn't send them the letter. He would write a scathing letter and then not send it, Yeah.

Mike: Hard to do. Yeah. Yeah.

Kristen: Number 18 punishing the messenger and this isn't just like something blatant like retaliating against a whistleblower or somebody who just tells us something we don't want to hear. This is actually like all the little small responses where somebody gives us news and we come across as like inconvenienced or disappointed, and this is something we can be doing all the time and not really realize it. So that's an interesting one.

Number 19 is so important, passing the buck, like blaming others for our mistakes. And he says also, like, this is another one of the ones that creates the most emotion, like we strongly judge leaders for doing this.He says it's also much more obvious than a lot of the habits and it's usually something that we know we're doing.

We know we should take responsibility for something, but we don't, instead we find a scapegoat for it. And he said, nobody expects us to be right all the time, but when we are wrong, they expect us to own up to it. And so true, so important. It feels terrible to be a scapegoat for something that actually wasn't your fault.

It feels so terrible and it will create bitterness and resentment that lasts for decades if you do it. So yeah, agreed.

Mike: That was on Rebecca's list too. You, you're, Everything is your fault.

Kristen: Everything is your fault. Yep.

Mike: I am sure she has not read Extreme Ownership of How Us Navy SEALs Lead and Win, but she had a lot of the same principles as a, a 220 pound navy seal.

I was so impressed. I'm like, I know you didn't read that book, but you've got it.

Kristen: I also just, I love the fact that you, I feel like, A, you bring up Extreme Ownership in literally every episode because I

Mike: At this point, I'm teasing you.



Kristen: You also don't just say extreme ownership, you're like, extreme ownership, how Navy sails lead and win.

Mike: U. S. Navy

Kristen: US, oh my

God, 

Mike: Enough said. Honestly, I never used the second part of the title until I started teasing you about this.

Kristen: Well, 

Mike: One day, Jocko's gonna listen to this and be like, Hey, this is not bad,

Kristen: is not

Mike: This is acceptable.

You know, Jocko voice, my Jo, my Jocko voice. I'm, oh God, . Okay.

Kristen: We're almost through the habits.

Mike: Are we?

Kristen: Yes, maybe we're getting into more tangents, the deeper we get, honestly, but whatever,

Okay. Keep going.

So number 20, an excessive need to be me. And he says we should have this like pile of behavior that we think of as like part of our essence even when some of it is unproductive behavior. Basically he's saying like watch out for resisting changing something because you consider it to be like part of who you are even when it's actually harming you in your career, which is, yeah. And then he has like the 21st habit, goal obsession, which actually gets its own chapter. But he describes this as like, when we get so wrapped up in achieving our goal that we do it at the expense of a larger mission. And this comes from a misunderstanding of what we want in our lives and what others want us to do.

Goal obsession in itself isn't a flaw, but it's the creator of other flaws. Because it distorts our otherwise exemplary talents and good intentions and turns it into something we no longer admire. You have to step back, take a breath, and survey the conditions that are making you obsessed with the wrong goals. 

So, from here, the majority of the rest of this is the seven step process that he gives for like how we can change for the better. He also points out that most of these habits revolve around information and emotion. And just, so just in general, when you're thinking about sharing or not sharing information or emotion. Question yourself, like, is this appropriate, and how much should I convey, and that applies to many of these situations. 

So the first step in the process is feedback. And this is so valuable, and Marshall Goldsmith is known for his approach to feedback, so I think this is great. This really makes sense.

But, he says we accept feedback that is consistent with our self image and reject feedback that is inconsistent with it, which is interesting. 

Andwhen he's getting feedback from people, he presents them with four requests, the four commitments of feedback, which is let go of the past, tell the truth, be supportive and helpful, not cynical or negative, and also pick something to improve on yourself, so everyone is focused on, more on improving than judging, which I think is actually really interesting, and I might incorporate some of this into my own 360 process.



Kristen: And then, stop asking for advice and then giving your opinion.

This is like a extra violation of adding too much value, right? Anything you say, and this, we talk about this in the episode next week with Rebecca a lot, but anything you say after you ask somebody for feedback is going to sound defensive if you're actually responding to it or giving your opinion.

So treat every piece of advice as a gift or a compliment and say thank you. Or some variation of that. 

And there's really three different types of feedback. There's solicited, which is really about asking the right people the right questions, and interpreting the answers to them properly. Solicited feedback is best if it's confidential or we're going to definitely do another episode on getting feedback from others. So I'm not going to talk too much about this, but he, the question he recommends asking people, if you're soliciting feedback yourself is how can I do better?

Which is great. I think that's very worth pointing out. 

Unsolicited is something where we haven't asked somebody for feedback, but they point out something, and this is important because we always suffer from the disconnect between the self that we think we are and then what the rest of the world sees in us.

And usually the rest of the world has a more accurate perspective than we do. So when this happens, again, treat it as a gift. And then you can go back and process it later,but in the moment, thank the person because they've put themselves out there. 

And then observational feedback, this is self observed feedback, but this is like really, Picking up on your awareness of others in your self awareness with your emotional intelligence skills so that you can pick up on if people are reacting differently to something or if there's something that you can do and he provides some exercises you can do to practice this we don't have time to get into. 

So once you've gathered feedback, the next step is apologizing and he gives like a very simple for apologizing and which is, say, I'm sorry, I'll try to do better in the future, and then stop there.

Mike: I mean, that part's smart, like, say less,

Kristen: Yeah, I don't like explain it, complicate it, qualify it, 

Just say, thank you. I'll try to do better next time. And just get it done as quickly as possible, is the other thing. 

And then the third step of this, is telling the world, which is advertising. After you apologize, you must advertise. It's not enough to just tell everybody you want to get better. You have to actually declare exactly in what area you plan to change and what you're going to do. So this is like the follow up of the apology. 

What's key is knowing exactly what you want to say and then repeating it regularly with extreme discipline and near shamelessness over time. That is what will actually cause people to believe that you are changing. It's not just saying it once. It's the follow through is a very consistent theme of this as well.

And then he has listening as a step, he says three things all good listeners do is think before you speak, listen with respect, ask before you speak, is it worth it? Which forces you to consider what will the other person feel when they hear this response? And he says that the skill that separates the near great from the great is the ability to make a person feel that when you're with them, they are the most important and the only person in the room. The great people do this all the time with no on off switch for caring and empathy. That's just become their thing. They're natural state. 

And this is so true. I think we've all met people who have the ability to make you feel like even when you know they are incredibly busy and they have so much going on in their lives, like when they are talking to you, they make you feel like the most important person.

Mike: I've heard Bill Clinton did that. Like when he talked, yeah. Like when he talked to you, you felt like he was looking at

Kristen: His receiving line was just like,

Mike: Very, very personal. Yeah. And

Kristen: Yeah, that is definitely true, but it starts with these listening skills.

Mike: That's hard. I want to say as a leader, you're often immersed in so much responsibility and work that, any one coming to talk to you can feel like an interruption very much. And I got this from, It's Your Ship actually. And he really talked about, it's so hard to stop what you're doing for the 35th time today and give the person you're like your full attention, but that is so important. Yeah, that's like a non stop effort on my part at least.

Kristen: Definitely, it takes a lot of effort. I do think, I find it really interesting that likeis this something that you can really build in as your natural state, if with enough practice.

Mike: I think so.

Kristen: Yeah. Which is kind of cool.

The, fifth step is thanking. So, when somebody does something nice for you, they expect gratitude, and they will think less of you for withholding it, which I think is very universally true. And he also says, like, saying thank you, just like recognizing somebody, creates closure.

And especially if any a kind of like potentially explosive discussion, if you just say thank you, it just cuts it off before it can get to that heated point. And he says gratitude is a skill you can practice. He actually recommends making a list of like the 25 people who helped you the most in your career and writing letters to them as a practice to just get started.

But it's absolutely a skill you can develop. I really love in general, just a lot of this is around going back to the basics that you're, taught as a child, right? Thank you, apologizing, listening, these are like, very, basic human skills that are very easy to forget and not have as habits when we're in adulthood.

So I think in general, that's a good theme of this. 

And then the last two,the sixth one is following up. And this is basically going back to all your coworkers every month or so and asking them for comments or suggestions. And if you do this. For one thing, your colleagues will actually accept that, combined with the advertising, that you actually are getting better, asking like, how am I doing, shows that you care.

And follow up is ultimately how you measure your progress. And it's like, what ultimately makes us actually do it is the follow up process. So this is super important. He says, people do not get better without follow up and becoming a better leader is a process, not an event. And I 100 percent agree with this.

I use this in coaching a lot, like having people who that you go back to as feedback and also when it's assessment. So like the Genos assessment that I talked about when we did the emotional intelligence episode. That's a core part of the practice is like going back to the people who gave you feedback and updating them on what you're planning to do and continuing to follow up with people.

I agree. This is a hundred percent. Very critical for changing 

And then the last part of this which I absolutely love is what he calls feed forward so there's four steps to this you pick one behavior that you would like to change that you think would make a significant positive difference in your life. You describe this objective in a one on one dialogue with anybody. He actually says it could even be a stranger, doesn't really matter who it is.

And then ask that person for two suggestions for the future that might help you achieve a positive change in your selected behavior. And the key with this is no mention of the past is allowed. You're completely focused on the future. And then you listen attentively to their suggestions. You're not allowed to judge, rate, or critique their suggestions in any way, not even positively.

Which is interesting. Just respond with thank you. So it's as simple as here's what I'm working on. Can you give me two suggestions of things I could do for the future, keep it focused on the future, no mention of the past, and then thank you. And then repeat this process with somebody else. And I really love this.



Kristen: Because it's so future focused, It doesn't activate the nervous system as much as like getting feedback on something you've done in the past. Andit's really like positively focused. And also like having the rule of like, you can't critique it in either direction.

I think it's good for just keeping you focused on just taking it in and being neutral about it. Successful people don't like hearing criticism in general, but they love hearing ideas for the future. So it tricks your brain into getting ideas for things that you can do differently.

And it's like feedback going in the opposite direction. So it comes in the form of ideas that you can put into practice in the future rather than focusing on the past.

Mike: That's smart. I like the part where you were sort of tricking your nervous system.

Kristen: Yeah, I love that. I love stuff like this and I will definitely take this. I do think it's important that you're getting, you're getting the feedback earlier in this process, right? So like you're getting feedback on your actual behaviors, but once you know what you're working on, this is really cool.

I love it. 

So,so then we're getting into the final couple of chapters.His next one is the rules of changing, basically, and he says,if you study successful people, you'll find their stories are not so much about overcoming enormous obstacles and handicaps, but they're really more about, avoiding high risk, low reward situations and doing everything in their power to increase the odds in their favor.

Mike: That's super true. And it's true in Jiu Jitsu too that they have what they call like high percentage moves. When you're, rolling with somebody that's very high skill level it's, you're just trying to increase the odds, and put yourself in positions where you can have a higher chance of winning.

Kristen: Yeah.

Mike: And, you're, I think businesses like that a little bit too. Can you guarantee success? No, but you can control risk, controlling risk is a whole thing of like how you invest in, commodities and derivatives and things like that. You don't look to win. You look to control risk and win within a set of parameters.

That's smart, you know? 

Kristen: Yeah. Applies to many

Mike: Mm hmm.

Kristen: So, he gives these eight rules for change. Number one, you might not have a disease that behavioral change can cure. Sometimes your primary issue is knowledge based or skill based. Recognizing that. Number two is picking the right thing to change. Often if there's one particular thing that stands out from your feedback, that's going to be the place to start. Number three, don't delude yourself about what you really must change. And he warns that like the thing that seems like it has a quick fix is often not going to provide the lasting fix and meaningful achievement because that requires lots of time, hard work, personal sacrifice, ongoing effort, and dedication to a process over years to really change the things that matter. Number four, don't hide from the truth you need to hear. We all know situations, whether personal or professional, where you're just like, right, like, I don't want to know. Like, where you're afraid, you're not afraid to ask for something because you don't want to know.

Mike: BRB.

Kristen: You're always better off knowing, even if it's hard. Number five, there is no ideal behavior. So like trying to benchmark your behavior to other people is a pointless endeavor. 

Mike: I think that's awesome, actually, I think,

Kristen: think

Mike: I think some of my friction with this book is it's got a bit of a perfectionist slant to it. And then some of the details don't, but the overall tone does.

But this is very smart. Like there's no ideal behavior, right? Everyone is complex. We're flawed. I think as a leader you can get too focused on having to attain some level of perfection. Everybody's flawed. Everybody has idiosyncrasies. Everybody has different childhood trauma like that make you, you can still be successful.

Kristen: People don't expect you to be perfect. Or if they do, it's actually a cognitive bias. Yep. Yeah, if they do, the problem is actually with them.

Mike: with them. There's a lack of discussion about authenticity in here. But I think it's okay to be a flawed human. Yep. and still be in positions of responsibility.

Yep.

Kristen: Number six, if you can measure it, you can achieve it. I agree with this. This is like another thing where it's like really helpful to work with a coach. Sometimes it can really help you with actually creating measurable goalsif this is something that you have a harder time doing with behavioral, like interpersonal type of skills.Number seven, monetize the result, create a solution. He's a big fan of this swear jar concept, where you're like, I'll pay you $10 every time you catch me doing this behavior.

And it's very effective. Okay. if you, I guess if you're like a, like senior executive at a Fortune 500 company, okay. But I don't know if that's like necessarily applicable to everybody.

Expensive. Very, Very expensive. Yeah.And then number eight, the best time to change this now, which, yes, I agree. 

And then chapter 14. Okay, well, Chapter 14 is special challenges for people in charge.

And this is like just a few more like ideas for things. One thing I actually really like is he suggests writing a How to Handle Me memo for your staff.

Mike: think that's genius.

Kristen: is super smart. Yeah. I think that's actually great. It forces you to really examine yourself, but it also will stimulate a dialogue on it.

and if, and it's super important with that, that it has to actually be like brutally honest

Mike: I think it can be just stuff like what we talked about with Peter Drucker.

Like I receive information better if you email me so I can process it because I'm dealing with 300 things and you're coming to tell me and it goes in the queue. But if you really want me to pay attention to or the reverse, Hey, I'm a, I've worked with leaders that were really face to face.

You could send them an email. Good luck getting a response. But if you go talk to them, They're going to pay attention to you. So

Kristen: oh

Mike: Who am I, how to handle me? this is how I work. If you want to work with me and get what you need out of me, this is the most effective way to do it. And don't talk to me when I'm hungry or whatever it is, you know, like,

sure. Like these are my hot buttons. Lunch at exactly 11 a. m. If you need something at that time, you're going to, you're going to be competing with my pasta, like whatever it is.

Kristen: I would have loved to have this for managers. I feel like it's this like often an investigation process to get this information. So this

Mike: probably a good question to ask. I can new team to like, how's the best way to discuss.

Kristen: way to discuss.

Mike: All sorts of different stuff. How do you receive information?

But how do you like to receive like feedback, all these things? Like it puts people in the driver's seat and gives them agency and power where they might feel like they didn't have it.

Kristen: Yeah. And I think at some point at least in the next quarter, we'll we should do either a success in a new role or actually just do the book The First 90 Days.

Mike: Just do the First 90 Days

Kristen: Which is what I generally use for coaching success in a new role.

There's a lot of good stuff like that.The other ones are stop letting your staff overwhelm you. Stop acting as if you're managing you, like you would need to be able to adapt your management style to individuals. 

Stop checking the box, which basically means don't assume that just because you told somebody to do something that it's going to be understood, read, done, like you need to follow up, basically.

Also

Mike: In Extreme Ownership, US Navy Seals he calls that, no, that's leading up the chain of command.

Kristen: Yes. Yep.Stop being prejudiced about your employees. And I think this is also partly, this was written in 2007, and I feel like he's coached a lot of people through the transition from when you had like the company man to the what is today? He says people are free agents

Mike: are definitely

Kristen: People are not going to sacrifice their lives. Most people are not going to sacrifice their lives for the good of the organization anymore. So like some of the prejudice like thoughts that might indicate prejudices against your employees or things like I know what they want I know what they know.

I hate their selfishness Or I can always get somebody else

Mike: like that's yikes.

Kristen: Not the way to manage

Mike: Good luck, sir. Yeah,

Kristen: But I think there are, these are assumptions we make, right? Like we assume we know what motivates somebody, but unless you've actually talked to them about it, you probably don't.

They probably don't know what you think they do.

Mike: Well, it's the golden rule fallacy. I'm going to treat people the way I would want to be treated. They might not want to be treated like

Kristen: doesn't actually, no, it's actually pretty,

Mike: pretty wrong. Yeah, it's pretty wrong. And especially now, different generations.

Kristen: It's really just like always treat people with respect, but customize the way you treat

Mike: And something I say, they get to tell you how they want to be respected.

Kristen: Yeah, like it means different things

Mike: to them. It means different things to different people. Yeah. Yeah.

Kristen: And then stop trying to coach people who shouldn't be coached. Yeah, he's just he's like stop trying to change people who don't think they have a problem are pursuing the wrong strategy for the organization or who think everyone else is the problem because you're just spinning your wheels.

Mike: I don't agree with that.

Kristen: Yeah, I don't necessarily agree with that and I think you also have a certain responsibility as a manager.

are definitely 

Mike: There are definitely people that are not interested in growth and maybe they're not. You're not going to invest the same amount of time in them, but yeah, you still need to be setting expectations with them and communicating about performance. Yeah.

Kristen: Yeah, I disagree with that too. I think that's part of the responsibility.

Yeah, and then the end, I kind of already talked about this, but he talks about, and this is like a weirdly philosophical chapter at the end of all this very like authoritative advice. But he's talks about, you're there, think about in your deathbed, looking back, what was really important.

And then he talks about this research project for Accenture, 200 high potential leaders. And they asked, if you're going to stay in this company, why are you going to stay? And the top three answers were, I'm finding meaning and happiness. I like the people, it feels like family, and I can follow my dreams.

And it was not about money.

Well, this is memori mento, it's the Latin phrase, remember you must die. Mm hmm.So now we get into what didn't resonate, which I think we've kind of like,

Mike: Well, let's sum it up.

Kristen: Let's sum it up. yeah. So I think the things I've, a lot of it's around the tone. I don't think I felt this as much as you did because I read the book.

But I definitely felt it. I do think there's a lot of very this is it statements without a lot of room for nuance. There's a lack of compassion in a lot of it. And like, even though like he, he shares some stories of when he made mistakes, like it doesn't really come off as like that genuine to me or like vulnerable enough.

Mike: It comes off as Lance Armstrong's Netflix special.

Kristen: Which I didn't watch, but I can, I can

Mike: It is exactly what you would think. He's like, yeah, I did it, but I don't know that I was wrong kind of vibe.

Kristen: Yeah, compared to like Dare to Lead where like she was

Mike: I offended you. Okay. That's not an apology. I'm sorry

Kristen: And there's also like, there's not room for a lot of nuance. There's no really recognition of like, trauma psychology, imposter syndrome, insecurity, and yes, this was written in 2007.

I'll,

Mike: They had trauma in

Kristen: But they still had, like, there was still, yeah, there, I think it was just, it's a little bit too, this is the truth and there's not room for anything else. And I just don't like that in general with books. I think, this is one way of thinking about things, or this is what I found works for me.

It's like a much better approach than this is the truth. So I did find that off putting, especially the success delusion chapter, which we went into pretty deep. I also would have just liked, I really liked the research study he put in the very last chapter. I would have actually liked to see more research, which I know he has, like, he has a PhD.

I know he's, has conducted research throughout his career. I would have liked to see more of that in less like case studies with people who are like, kind of unrelatable.

Mike: Well, he had injured, there could have been more data too, right? Like he's 15 percent of my clients experienced that.

Well, tell me more, tell me what the breakdown is. Tell me like how they solved it. some, Yeah.

Kristen: Yeah. So that was mine. What about you?

Mike: I had a hard, I had a really hard time listening to this book, which he reads himself. I find his tone really, what we said, cutting and harsh.

There's a dogmatism about the way he speaks that comes across as the belief that he is absolutely right. Ultimately, I, I don't know the man, but for me, it reads as a lack of humility and I think this is the primary character I look for in a leader. And I was reminded of the quote, like, all credit goes to the man in the arena.

I don't know that this man's ever been in the arena. I could be wrong. But it's got a real like art critic vibe to it. And I tried to listen to it again when we did this and I couldn't get through it. It was just like so judgmental. And I was like, okay,the thing is like the list of the 20 things are super on point.

There's so many good things in there. But anyway, I also will say I feel the crux of all of this is elaborated, But it's really comes down to self introspection and individualized therapy. He elucidates what are often symptoms of deep underlying psychological issues that need to be dug out, over a long time and not just behavior modified on top of that, those roots of weeds that need to be truly dug out to resolve the behavior.

So in in a way I find his stuff a bit reductive. Yeah. Sorry, New York times bestselling author.

Kristen: And like, you know, I do want to recognize, yes, this book was published in 2007. A lot has changed since then.

I think it would really benefit from a second edition where maybe he can take in, and maybe it would be much better received because I, again, the advice is so solid. I use this

Mike: Advice is solid.

Kristen: I love this book for the content. I think there's just a lot of issues with the tone and maybe some things that could be corrected with a more modern perspective and like an editor.

Mike: An editor an editor who's watching out for that and Okay. So Kristen, what was your most life changing take away?

I really just love the idea of like when you're not sure what to say, just say, thank you.

Kristen: And for somebody who has really struggled with getting criticism, and also has had issues with like,how do you take criticism in, but then not all criticism is necessarily criticism that's valid or useful for you. So I really like just this process of thank you.

And, and appreciating what the person is putting forward. Then you can decide later whether you agree with it or not. And then. I also just really love the feedforward approach, and I think I'm actually going to start using that more often, or suggesting that more often. But I like just how future focused it is.

And yeah.

Mike: I like that. You'll have to teach me more about the feed forward. I think that's a very like proactive,way to 

Kristen: not dwell in the past, but like move forward, like being drawn forward almost like from the future. I think that's cool. My most life changing takeaway was, um, you're probably trying to add too much value.

Mike: This is for me, at least a trait of deep insecurity and it turns people off. Nobody likes the person that always has to speak up, or always has to be right or always has to be seen winning. And I think, the crux of all of it is leadership is about supporting others to win.

And I definitely want to do better at that. So I love it. 

All right. Awesome.

Kristen: Well, thank you guys so much for listening.

We hope you found this helpful, and we will see you guys next week.

Mike: Thank you for joining. We really appreciate it. See I'm expressing gratitude. We're very grateful you're listening. This is a labor of love for us. Very close to our hearts. Thank you. Bye bye. 

Kristen: The Love and Leadership Podcast is produced and co-hosted by me, Kristen Brun Sharkey and co-hosted by Mike Sharkey. Please rate and review us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever else you get your podcasts. We can't stress enough just how much these reviews help. You can follow us on LinkedIn under Kristen Brun Sharkey and Michael Sharkey, and on Instagram as loveleaderpod.

You can also find more information on our website, loveandleadershippod.com. Thank you so much for listening, and we'll see you again next week.